Slow Herbalism, Mental Health & Ancestral Healing with Herbalist Jo Sesay

What if healing isn't something you rush toward, but something you remember?

In this episode, herbalist Jo Sesay shares how her grandmother, mother, and Aunt Jo created their own healing network long before the internet existed.

You'll discover why cultural connection matters deeply in both food and plant medicine, how ancestral wisdom shapes modern herbal practice, and why slowing down is the most radical thing you can do as a budding herbalist.

Jo brings together psychology, addiction counseling, perinatal mental health expertise, and a PhD candidacy in integrative health.

She shares honest truths about the pressure to perform on social media, why herbalism thrives on collaboration not competition, and how to build a genuine relationship with plants one cup of tea at a time.

Here's what you'll learn:

• Jo's family healing network across generations
• Why cultural foods matter in healing
• Mental health, trauma, and cultural processing
• Reconnecting to land
• Black Americans returning to herbalism
• Creating herbal rituals with children
• Oat straw as ally
• Creating your own blueprint
• Reclaiming the sacred in practice

Connect with Jo here as RealRootedJo on Threads and Substack for science-informed reflections on herbalism, mental health, and ancestral healing.

Ready to deepen your practice? This is the kind of thinking we cultivate inside the Community Herbalist Certification & Mentorship. Learn more at https://www.theherbalistspath.com/community-herbalist-certification

Get full show notes here.

Wondering how you can use your herbal skills to help people when times are tough?

Grab Medicine For The People - An Herbalist's Guide To Showing Up For Your Community In Times of Need

It's loaded with ideas and resources to help you help others!💚 Click here to ge

Chapters

• 2:24 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 4:19 Elders, Home Remedies, And Lineage
• 11:29 Culture, Food As Medicine, And Recovery
• 19:44 Mental Health Through A Cultural Lens
• 28:04 Slow Healing Versus Quick Fix Culture
• 34:54 Boundaries, Social Media, And Sacred Work
• 45:19 Collaboration Over Competition In Herbalism
• 53:49 Motherhood, Pausing, And Reentering Practice
• 1:03:14 Children, Gentle Herbs, And Family Rituals

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 1:15

Welcome to the Herbalist Path. If you love learning about the power of plant medicine and how to use it in your life, this show is for you. I'm Mel Mutterspot, clinical herbalist, herbal educator, and your host. In each episode, you're gonna hear me sharing herbal insights and knowledge from my 25 plus years of working with and learning from the plants. Plus, I'm gonna share interviews with some of the most amazing herbalists, educators, farmers, and healers out there, all bringing their herbal wisdom here for you. Really, this show is all about continuing this movement to put an herbalist in every home and a healer in every community. Again, thank you so much for listening and welcome to the herbalist path. Enjoy the show. Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode on the herbalist path. I am really thrilled and excited for today's guest. One, because I get to take a little more time to actually get to know her through this podcast. And my guest is Jo Cise. She is a fellow brilliant herbalist. She has a background in psychology and addiction counseling. She's worked with perinatal mental health, and she's a current PhD candidate. And I believe in integrative health. She's got so much wisdom and knowledge. I've connected with her through Threads, which recently has like become my favorite platform to be on. So yeah, Jo is also known as Real Rooted Joe, and she's also been a guest teacher in the community herbalist certification and mentorship, where she had just taught about a holistic approach to mental health, which was just a really, really fabulous class. So I'm excited to connect with you, Joe, and to have all of my listeners get to hear about you too. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_03: 3:20

Thank you so much. I'm really excited. Anything dealing with like herbs and health and just all the things, I'm always excited to do it.

SPEAKER_00: 3:27

So yeah, I love it. I love it. And how you always show up it with like the scientific approach and also some of the more traditional and spiritual realms of it all. I think it's really, really cool. Uh yeah, thank you. I'm so excited to have you here. One of the things I love to ask just to get started is just hearing about you and like little baby Joe, how did she get into this world of herbs?

SPEAKER_03: 3:56

Every time I'm asked that question, I feel like it's so complex because I feel like it's like a tapestry of just different phases of life. Like I feel like I've kind of rebirthed into the work more than one time. And the older I get, I real, I like I always end up thinking of memories where I'm like, oh, I was doing it then, or like, oh, I was doing it then. And I literally just mentioned this, I think on my substack about how when you're growing up, your elders don't like, especially in my family, there is no like herbalist term. Like you just know remedies, or you know, that's what so-and-so does, and stuff like that. So I always credit my start to just at the knees of my elders. I think, like most people, my like my actual nickname because my name is Joyo, but I go by Joe because my grandmother had a cousin who I called Aunt Joe. Um, because in black southern families and black families, period, your elders who are still your cousins are aunties. So she, her, my grandmother had this really cool system that when people didn't so well, my grandmother has like a billion health books, and I'm really praying I get to inherit them. I'm really hoping. I've got to ask her if I can get this on them. But my grandmother would look up, use these books, and just her knowledge of what could help uh with certain ailments and things of that nature. And I really grew up seeing the women in my family, like my mother, my mom's older sister, who I call my T or my big mama, them kind of like conspiring together over the like stagnant cases. And so as a little girl, you're just sitting there watching, you know, they all have kind of a higher pitched voice. So it's like, you know, like flipping what the book's saying, what this saying. I heard this, and so they have their own little network, so they're consulting when they're at work, they're calling people over here, they're calling holistic doctors, they're calling regular doctors. So they're just pulling from all these different corners before the internet even was a thing. They just have their own system. And if they just really weren't seeing the result, then they brought in my aunt Joe, and we would get to go to her house. She had this cute little house on the on the street, and she had like dyed her own hair like this interesting color, like a like almost like a rose gold. And my grandmother would be like, Joe, this is what's going on, you know, yada yada yada. And so then now she's in the game, so she's pulling out her library books, they're comparing notes. She's like, How long did you all try it? And then she's like, Okay, let's add these supplements and let's add this. And I, you know, like I have somebody else's something similar. So to me, that's really what started to mold my view on holistic approaches. And I think my mom being in the food industry as like a dietitian and a nutritionist and seeing her help people heal with cultural foods. Like she never took away what you know they're usually used to eating. And sometimes she would re-you like re-establish it in their care. Like she'd say, How long have they been in the States? Okay, how long have they been away from their traditional foods? And she's calling. And I've seen like family members fly in because she's called them on the phone. Like, I think their food might help them. And she adjusts it according to their needs, and they're out the door. So to me, all those things help to shape me. And I always have to give homage to my grandfather as well. Like, we have our sore throat. He's putting like vinegar and honey to what now I know is a stovetop oxamel, and you know, putting some lemon in there and other things, and him kind of doing like the more like southern-rooted remedies that you think of that they don't have a name. There's not like a certain measurement, it's just you stop whenever you feel the inkling to stop and you gauge it more intuitively. So I just always am so appreciative because you don't realize until you start getting into like more structural learning, you know, take learning from, you know, seasoned herbalists that are more science-based, where you're like, oh, there's names for these things. Like, you know, there's processes that actually align with that. There's that like scientific backing that goes with that. So to me, that's really where Little Joe started. Um, it's just at the knees of my elders, like when watching them do things and not even know what they were doing was medicinal. It's just them genuinely wanting to help community.

SPEAKER_00: 8:27

I love that so much. And you say most people grew up that way. And I'm like, no, no, I didn't. My family was not doing that kind of stuff. I'm kind of the first one in this kind of generation. I'm sure that, you know, my family, uh, prior generations, you know, 150, 200 years ago, obviously were doing these kinds of things, but I definitely didn't learn it through my parents or grandparents. So what an incredible blessing to have all your aunties and your cousins and your mama and just, you know, that's so beautiful. It's so, so beautiful. And hearing how your mother was a nutritionist as well, like, of course, you and I both know that nutrition and diet play such a huge role in people's healing before herbs come into play. But the fact that she was going back to their roots with their food medicine, like that sounds cool. So, do you remember what some of those different kinds of foods or diets would have been? Or were you just not really paying attention?

SPEAKER_03: 9:30

I mean, like, it's been, I've my mom has had me and like my siblings like follow her at work since we were four. So it's like I've had to volunteer in long-term care and nursing homes and just hospitals and all types of things, like until really until I got done with college, um, by well, my undergrad. But I mean, like, I've seen my mom work with cases of like people who are like Bengali and they just were not getting better, transferred to her facility. That one I remember, because I would think I was in high school when that happened. And I think that's the first time I was kind of like, uh-huh. That's a new approach. Because anytime we would volunteer with her, we would kind of like be her assistant in the room with like her clients. Like we'd have to like have all these forms, and they'd be like, Oh, it's okay, your kids are here, whatever, they're so cute. And we would ask them, you know, what's your food preference? And what do you like to eat? And it's just like my mom had just like, I don't know, this discerning to just ask certain questions that's not on the page. Like she had like this discernment that doctors were just not picking up on. And it could be the most subtle thing. It could literally just be, and that's I think that was like magical to me because I'm like, how could you guess that it's the diet that's gonna fix it? Like it's not the meds, it's not anything else going on. Like there's they've struggled through two facilities. And I always call my mom like the Gordon Ramsay of food of the food industry on that level, because that's how strict her standard is. But you know, like I remember on that particular case, like her being very active because she was just like, Let me talk to this person, and kind of just I don't know, like it's just like this intuitive thing for her to kind of be like, when's the last time you had your food? And going, and by this time we did have the internet. So her using the resources that she had to learn what the food was like, looking at the food chemicals, breaking down what the carbs were like, how does it transfer in the body? What are the benefits of those meals? Like the whole meal. So what the sauce down to the if there's meat, if it's a vegetarian dish, what does the whole dish offer, like nutrition-wise? How is it nourishing? What is the body gaining and benefiting from that? Her taking the initiative to reach out to the family and was like, look, I need to understand, you know, how long have they gone without this? Why are they going without it? Trying to align to see, okay, are these symptoms aligning with the absence of these meals? So her thing was like, give me a chance to see if this is gonna work. Her, you know, reaching out to family and saying who lives in states, who doesn't, who's willing to come here because I don't know how to cook it. And them like her getting clearance for the daughter to come in and just bring meals for like the state, and to see that person just start healing, naturally coming back to themselves, gaining weight, you know, being more cognitive. It was like the craziest thing to me as a teenager to be in it, but it left such an impression on me that I really don't think I could appreciate till I got older and realizing how deeply cultural connection plays into food. And even within my own, you know, my own consultations, I've had clients of my own where when they've been disconnected from ancestral diets and things of that nature, or they've, you know, kind of handed over their typical cultural meals for like a more westernized diet. The moment I encourage them or I'll ask them, like, when you go home, do you feel these things? And they'll be like, oh my God. I don't. Like, and I'm like, it might, we might have to just give back. But it's because of those experiences that have taught me like healing is a lot broader than the way that we box it in. And I always keep that in mind with just my studies and everything.

SPEAKER_00: 13:19

I love that. I love that so much. And there's so many things that you brought up about your mother that makes me think about what it takes to be a really skilled, skilled healer. And, you know, you know, you go to the doctor and they've got their checkboard with like, okay, did your uncle have glaucoma? You know, but like they're not intuitively able to draw out the right questions to come up with something like what your mother has done. And that is such an incredible skill that develops over time. And I love this for you because it sounds like you've had a mentor since you were four, you know, or younger. Yeah. That's so cool. That's really, really brilliant. And I love how she brings in the cultural aspects. I personally feel deprived of my cultural background. I'm some big muck of European whateverness. I would imagine that my family grew up with a lot of potatoes and sausages. And that's about it. And I'm like, I don't want that stuff in my body. Can we get something else there? But just hearing those kinds of things is really cool. I love that concept and thought of those cultural backgrounds with just the food. And the question, you may not have an answer for this. You you may, but it also makes me think of your background in mental health and how having that cultural connection is also so deeply healing for many people as somebody who feels deprived of her cultural connection. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 14:51

Like when I was studying in my master's, I like intentionally took classes about culture. Like, I'm not licensed at all. I mean, like, I just have my knowledge at this point. But what I had decided to do that in case I did decide to pursue to get my license, because being someone who's been in therapy, that tends to be a missing core piece. Even when I like received like my diagnosis for ADHD, I had a really thoughtful psychiatrist that I worked with who consulted with black psychiatrists to help her read the results through a black lens where she's just like, okay, this is a standard test and these are the scores, but like, what does this mean culturally? So where some of the results were like very wonky and off-kelter for my personality, and they were like, oh, it's reading this way because these are the nuances. So even when it comes to mental health, I think people are surprised that even the way that we process can be culturally influenced, the way that we view pain, negative experiences, even the way that we see healing, you know, it can be very culturally influenced, whether it be through ethnicity or even through region. Like the way I've seen people in, you know, East Africa, them dealing with certain issues is different than like my husband who's West African, like completely different practices compared to somebody who's might who might be American. Like in America, we tend to like indulge and we have very addictive ways that we handle stress. So we find we're very big on escapism in our country, where it's like, oh my gosh, every the sky is falling. I gotta go buy me a new car. I need to go like to Starbucks today and like fuel myself on caffeine, or the tub of ice cream that has been pushed in our face and like every rom-com, like you go through a heartbreak and you're just like, I'm gonna eat ice cream, and you have absolutely no clue. It's like this programming. So it's just like in those ways, how we how we're connected to culture can be healing. And then in some ways, it can work against you as well, because some cultures do have every I feel like every culture has something toxic about it. Like there's always something we have to unlearn or adjust or kind of heal from in that way, too. And especially again, like being a black American woman, learning about how my DNA is directly impacted, you know, by the by what's gone through in my heritage. Like having my grandfather's grandmother wasn't safe. So thinking about the stressors that she had to carry and how that's directly passed down to me, didn't ask for it, but that's you know, like, but me doing the work will save generations after me. So the for some people, they're like, oh, it's so deep. And I'm like, but it is deep. And sometimes I'm like, healing is a deep work, like it's a deep process, it's not as surface level of just stress and anxiety and depression or you know, some type of ailment that we're physically going through. Everything has a root, and some roots are just deeper than others, really.

SPEAKER_00: 17:49

Yeah, that's so true. And it is like healing, and you speak of all these different cultures or whether you know, people being in the United States. And I feel that a common thing with healing in the United States is we want the instant fix. But this is a deep, long process, whether we're working on the ancestral trauma or our own mental health for too or our actual physical health and healing. Yeah, sure, there's pills that can give you some help right now, but that's not healing, that's masking, right? And that's what people want so much in this culture, is what I see. But I also see this huge shift of people recognizing, like, oh, that that's not healing. Yeah, absolutely. I love it. Yeah, it's great. And it's great like to have a guy like yourself to help people through that kind of work. And like, what a what a brilliant, or actually what fortunate beings that get to work with you with this nutritional background, with all of your different cultural experiences. Cause I know you've traveled and lived in quite a few different countries and with your background in mental health and herbalism, like awesome, like the holistic picture of it all. And I think that's what it takes, you know. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for continuing to do the work for yourself and in turn for others. Like that's that's the power and the magic, if you ask me. Like not looking at us and individuals as just this one little thing. There's one thing you're dealing with now. And that's one of the things I love to teach our students is like, how do you draw out the rest? Because they're gonna people are gonna come to you with this primary issue that they're like, hey, can you help me with this? And from what I've seen, more often than not, sure, that might be a problem. But we've had a lot of other things to get to that are deeper, and just learning that skill and intuition, like your mother had after doing this several times to help people get to that depth is it's a beautiful practice. And yeah, just thank you again for that.

SPEAKER_01: 20:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 20:08

Yeah. So, what do you do today? I know you're raising some beautiful kiddos.

SPEAKER_03: 20:14

The other than being a mom of three very strong-willed children, like Aduna, I have I have all critically thinking, strong-willed, powerful beings. And so that's always an adventure every day. How old are they? Five, three in one.

SPEAKER_02: 20:32

Oh, yeah, you're busy.

SPEAKER_03: 20:35

Everywhere I go, people are just like, I know you're busy. Yes. Why, yes, I am. So that's my to me, that is my highest calling currently, my best thing ever. I know some people don't like that. And I get like I'm a complete individual, but I love being a mom. Like I adore my babies, they're like everything. Other than that, is wrangling my husband, who is my greatest supporter in his all his realms. And then really just I took after our youngest one, or my only girl, I took like a complete year off and just kind of just did my own private. Practicing of just loving on myself and taking care of my family and taking a break. Because at that time we were getting ready to move from Morocco back to the States as well. And that was just a huge transition to keep working with people and you know, doing all these things, teaching. Because at that time I was teaching a lot of classes and stuff like that, and really on a lot of content creation and all that other jazz. And I was just like, you know, I think I'm just gonna take a break. So now kind of just getting my, I feel like this year is kind of getting my feet back, what? And just kind of being like, oh, what's the world like, you know, now? What are the needs like? Because it's so different, you know, compared to when we left this state like almost two years ago. So just being back and getting the climate of everything and kind of honing in like what I believe I could offer best if to people is kind of just where my focus is right now, and just kind of reading the room and seeing what people need. But it's been such a joy just to reconnect with people and then also like people like you, like being on threads and just actually finding herbalists I can actually I can respect and connect with. I because I think that's I always find that so important. Like when I started really being getting more, I won't say serious, but just being more vocal about the work that I do. That's one of that's something I've always tried to make sure to do is to stay connected with other herbalists that I just genuinely respect and appreciate the work that they do. Because granted, everyone, and I say that all the time, like there's a different flavor of herbalism for everybody. Like you do have your more woo-woo people, you have your very strict science people, you have your like heavy spiritualist people, like there's just something, you know, out there for everybody. But I always like love people that are just very bold about their work, practical, and can appreciate all the different styles and aren't afraid to, you know, like engage and exchange information because that's how it's always been. Like herbalism thrives on collaboration. Like, and I had to I explain that to like new ones coming in all the time. I'm like, you cannot be an island, you cannot be isolated. Like, as much as it's not a competition, that's gonna kill you out early. Like everyone, trust me, we're not gonna overlap people. It's almost impossible. I don't care how tight the internet looks, like you live in a different state. If you go outside, I will not get your people. Like, wherever you're at, that's where you're, you know, you're called to be. But I always explain to them, you know, like for as long as this work has been alive, herbalists would travel to villages, to different coasts, to different regions. If they just heard someone has something that they really wanted to learn, it was like, hey, what you've been doing? Like, I need to get up on that. And I think that's been like my favorite thing this year is, and I probably annoyed my husband every other day because I'm like, I saw somebody do this, I need to go, you know, get this and make that. And he'll be like, Where are you picking this up from? I'm like, oh, I want to go get a whole coconut because there's one girl on TikTok who's an herbalist, who's I also follow on thread. She like made coconut oil, she carved the coconut, she had the coconut water. I'm trying to do all the things, and it's just like that's the fun of the practice. So that's really what I think, especially the end of this year. I have like the long list of screenshots of things I've just been rolling through on my week off, not shooting any as content because the joy of my work sometimes is just private, and that everything's always being demanded for us to share it, share it, share it, share it, share it. And it, I feel like it loses the potency of what we're doing sometimes because we're just under that constant pressure. Almost like if like if you're not putting it out there, you're not doing it. Like, and I've had people say something so stupid like that, oh, like how do we know you're really blending teeth? I can tell you how to formulate. Like, I don't mean showing you me throwing herbs in a bowl doesn't also mean I know how to formulate our herb blend, but it's just that social media fix of just us feeling like every time we make this salve or an oil or answer a question, it has to be translated into content. So I've also been kind of resetting my brain out of that rat race as well, that I'm allowed to do things and not showcase it, not talk about it. It just be totally mine, totally beautiful, totally pure, untouched, not having a thousand opinions and questions. Why did you do it? What does it do? Can I see it? How long do you like? Just something for me that's just comforting and experimental. Whatever I don't like, whatever I consider a failure, does not have to be everybody's practice. It can just be mine and documented for me and my personal growth without making it something for an audience. So that's really, I think the year, this year's been such a reset for me in the healthiest of ways, especially being a millennial, growing, you know, like we're I'm a part of that generation where we've been like sown to social media since it's been created. So me getting back to being able to just be present fully in things that bring me joy without that pressure and unlearning that pressure of sharing absolutely everything that I'm doing just because complete strangers are curious about what I'm up to.

SPEAKER_00: 26:30

And they'll sit there and ask you questions for days and days and expect you to spend the hours that some of these officers can take just for them. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Like you speaking, that whole thing just relaxed my nervous system in such beautiful ways. Because I feel like I'm going through a similar thing. And honestly, I can't tell you how many times I have not made a preparation because I felt the pressure that I needed to go and record everything that I'm doing. Yeah. But like I've never wanted to be an influencer, but apparently I have influence on the internet. Oh, you do. Yeah. Right. But like, that doesn't mean I have to go out there and do all this shit for everybody else. Absolutely. I love how you brought it back to you and what matters there. And I don't, you know, I think one of the things that used to come up when I first started really paying attention to social media and being on there is just the amount of people that would get mad if I didn't give them all these different answers to what herb do I take for this little problem? And I'm like, oh my goodness, yes. I have ethics and morals. And like I also have spent many decades studying this round. And if you would like a consultation, well, these days I don't really have to do that. So I'll I'll refer you to somebody that does. But yeah, that whole pressure, it did really become a pressure thing and takes away that genuine joy and love and connection with the plans. It becomes a performance.

SPEAKER_03: 28:13

And I hate that so much.

SPEAKER_00: 28:16

Yeah, I think we all do. Like I'm a Gen X now, but almost to the minute millennial, my daughter, she's 12. She's like, Mom, you use gifts all the time. You're such a millennial. I was born in 1978. So I'm like, thank you. Yeah, thanks, babe. I'm glad you think I'm more youthful than I really am. So funny. But yeah, I honestly feel like that is something that more and more people are feeling, and that there's going to be a big shift in 2026 where people are like, I am over performing for you.

SPEAKER_03: 28:54

For sure. And that's why now it's just that taking that year off and then coming back to social media because I had like I had a following on TikTok, and I think the best thing for me was losing it. Like I had worked up to 40,000 followers, and of course, it was great for business. And I was devastated when I lost it because it was for like they still can't tell me why I lost my account, really. But in hindsight, I'm so grateful for that because it became performative for me, where people are not asking but demanding, what about this herb? Or like, this is happening to my mom. Can you address this in a video? And you feel, and I think people underestimate, like when you're working in and operating in any type of healer role, we're so connected to people and we're so sensitive to people's needs. And I don't think people realize that even though they may feel like they're just making a request, we can get in that hamster wheel of feeling like we don't want to let anybody down. Like, what if, especially when you're first starting, I think, too, you get into that space of like, what if my answer is going to, you know, like be the reason? What if I don't say this or I don't give this, how many people are gonna suffer? And I had to get out of that space too where I'm like, Joe, you cannot possibly save everyone, beloved. Like, you it's not like no matter how many inboxes you get, how many people you answer, there's always gonna be people with questions, and you're not gonna get to everyone. You can't spend all those hours free researching, nope, doing nothing. You got you got three babies to feed. Exactly. And I'm great, and I exactly, and I'm grateful for my husband because he really had sat me down during my postpartum and had like and when everything came crashing on me, he was like, I'm kind of happy, like because he's just like, you're working like a horse, you can't, you're a mother. And he's like, it's not even about me, it's about you can make staying connected to earth, and now he's like, You no one owns you, and he's like, the internet will make you feel like your own. And I'm like, I don't want to be, you know, like I was like, I didn't do this to get popular. Like, I tell people all the time, like, personality, it's just set this way. I'm like, you're gonna get the harsh love in real life, and you can sit, I can have nothing, no Facebook, no nothing. This is just me as a person, and I'm like, me showing up online, it's because I just genuinely want to share whatever's on my mind, whatever I feel people might want to hear, or whatever, or whatever they need that I'm noticing. But I'm like, it's not for me to go get a brand deal or you know, like to blow up and like even when I had like a large following, it started to overwhelm me because I'm like, who are all these people? Why are y'all here? Why is my inbox full? Like, I'm trying to nap, I'm putting my phone on, do not disturb, because I'm breastfeeding. You have like all these aggressive people. Like, why don't you answer me? I have a life. Like, this is not my like, I'm like, don't get this. This is not my real life. I would tell people, like, I have real clients in real life. Like, I'm actually outside wildcrafting in my real life. Like, I'm like, I'm not really on my phone. These things are, I'm very good of scheduling and setting things up way in advance. And it's just letting loose, and people are thinking I'm just online. No, because I'm like, my life is very full, and I'm just very I've been strategic like that since my 20s, but I'm just like, no, like, so I'm happy to see more people waking up and just taking it. I feel like it's like redeeming our work to where we're like, nope, we're not gonna keeping the focus on what our work is actually about because it's what we do to me, it's just different and special, and it's sacred work. And when we have it so commercialized and out there, that's what gets people to if that's what dilutes it to where people think it's just as simple as sharing your herb or sharing your herbalist or just giving some off-the-top knowledge or showing what tea we're drinking. And I'm like, the practice is so much more rich than that, like it's deeper than that. So I like I do hope to see more people kind of unplugging in that way, and maybe even having some content. That's like I did a bunch of things this week and it's none of your business because you should be because you should be doing some stuff yourself. So instead of waiting for me to tell you what I'm doing, why don't you tell? And that's why I always ask on threads. What did you, what serve did you make? Don't ask me what tea did you blend while you're worried about what tea I'm blending. Like, I want to because that's what I want to know is what you're actually doing. Because if you're following me, then you should be putting some of this into practice instead of juicing me for information. And if you're just here to juice, then find another teacher because I want actions. Yeah, that's I was I want actionable people in my line of sight.

SPEAKER_00: 33:38

I love it. I love it. All of that. I can relate to that so much. Like the the following piece too, like the metrics on social media and the pressure and all of that kind of stuff. It was never something I was there for. Like, I love to share information, I love to talk about herbs. I'm really freaking passionate about it. I've had a podcast for almost six years talking about herbs.

SPEAKER_03: 34:04

Like that's wild.

SPEAKER_00: 34:06

It is wild. And what is even more wild is when I look at like, oh, I across the board, there's 250,000 people following me.

SPEAKER_03: 34:16

That's uh achievement though.

SPEAKER_00: 34:18

But it's is it is it? No. I don't, I mean, I don't really think it is. Like I think online. I think it's creepy. I mean, we thank you, but in a way, is it creepy?

SPEAKER_03: 34:31

Yes, because you're just like, why are there so many strangers listening? And a realistic space, that's like if you go outside your house and it's just a wave of 250,000 people, it would just be like ghastly. Like, how did y'all find me? Why are you here? Yeah, are you really listening? But on I would say on but on the level of which I think is that strange balance, is I think it's also important that we do have voices like yours that are more dominant. And unfortunately, we then when it comes to metrics, that part does matter because there are just so many people. I people can find me all day. We do have like an incredible amount of people sharing misinformation about the work that we do. So when even those and that's what that's the only thing I think that keeps me being like, okay, sometimes some of this, not all of this, is necessary. And how do I navigate it? Because you having 250,000 people listening to you is like no small feat. That's actually phenomenal and inspirational. But for someone like me, I'm like, heck yeah, because that's what we need. Like we need more mouths out there giving authentic practical information that can be verified and that's real. Like you have like a truck ton of physical experience, hands-on experience, to where for somebody starting, that's almost like vocal mentorship to them while they're working until they find a place to help them, you know, really put their hands in. And I think that's important because we don't have a lot of people in our space that actually have, to me, great podcast or great content. A lot of it is very surface level or very much, this is how I healed my body, and here's my blueprint. Whereas for someone like you, you're seasoned enough to be like, that's not how we're gonna do that. Like, I'm gonna tell you what I did, but I'm also gonna show you the steps so you understand how to do it for yourself, because this probably is not gonna be your thing. And I think, in again, that delicate balance of just being like, it's something to celebrate, but just how do I navigate it not becoming like the ruling factor of my life to where now we're like hungry for like I gotta hit a million, like 259. Like, that's my mentality where I'm like, okay, if I get this number, that's awesome. That means I'm making an impression, and that people are hungry to actually learn how to do this. But I'm not gonna sit there and be like, okay, cool, like we're here, I gotta get to 50k by like December. No, wherever we go, that's where we go. Because if those amount of people were sitting in front of me, like it would be how impactful would I be if they were sitting there as well. Some of them are gonna listen, some of them are not. So I think it's I still think that's freaking amazing to have that many on a podcast. Like, I don't know how many people can actually say that, especially in herbalism.

SPEAKER_00: 37:22

Oh, I don't know if they're just on my podcast, it's just across the board.

SPEAKER_03: 37:25

So, like, that's so ridiculous! It doesn't matter if it's combined. That's just still like I don't know how many people can say that they've been in the work this long, and especially with like I call you guys the OG herbalists. A lot of them like hate social media, and I've had to beg some like please, like you're needed. People are looking for you guys. Like, I'm still to me, just I'm like, people like you're master hex. No, I'm like a decade, 11 or 12 years in. I'm like nowhere near. And I'm like, maybe when I have gray hair on my head, we could talk about that. Like, I'm not, but the OG herbalist, like, people are searching for that really seasoned knowledge because everybody out here is like, I've been doing it for like six months. I've been like reading these books for like a year, and I'm like, I just did a six-month program. Yes, that's as master. I'm like, I don't need to hear from you. Like, your apothecary is probably not even refined. Like, I like we need seasoned people. So for you to be in that OG level and to have people find your voice relevant, that's not a small feat at all. At all.

SPEAKER_00: 38:34

Well, thank you. And I also uh don't feel that I'm the OG level because I look at my elders in that way, right? I mean, I mean it's I'm like, I feel like there's in this generation of herbalism as it is today, we've got, you know, Rosemary and her crew that are like the elders these days. And then there's another crew that's about 12 years older than me. And they all, most of them learned from Michael Moore and from Rosemary. And a lot of those were my teachers. Most of my teachers were all like, I studied with Michael Moore and he was gone. Oh like he was gone before I really knew I was getting into it. Like I think when he was around, I was starting to dabble, but I really didn't even know like herbalism was a thing. I was just like, cool, plants, natural healing. Yay. Um and then yeah, as time evolved, most of my more formal educators were like, studied with Michael Moore. Yeah. And now a lot of those are my peers and colleagues, and it's really, really cool. But I just wanted to bring that back to one, thank you, that feels really good. Two. Most of why I started my podcast, though, is because I knew I had this loud voice and I knew that there was so much misinformation out in the world. And I wanted to do my part to try and squash the misinformation. And in my time of doing that, and just getting a bit older and more wise, and gray hair starting to show up more on my head, just recognizing that I can't. I can continue to share really valuable information and and knowledge with people, but there's no way I can squash all the crap out there, especially like with AI happening and people trusting AI as their herbalists and whatnot.

SPEAKER_03: 40:28

Um gracious almighty.

SPEAKER_00: 40:30

It's just a it's a it's a battle that, like you were saying, about your wanting to come back to your time with the herbs and the plants and the things that you are doing for you and for your connection with that, not as some type of performative measure. And I think that all just ties right back into it all and where I'm at in this phase of life and business and how things go. Like I love to guide people, I love to share information. And the majority of it is gonna happen in my closed containers because I know those people are dedicated to the learning. I'm not just wasting all of my time and energy spouting this stuff off. They're dedicated to the learning they want to learn from other people, like you and the other guest teachers that come in. Like when you mentioned how you had talked about how it's so important learning from these different herbalists you're connecting with and how nobody practices the same way. And you know, I'm sure you're working with herbs that are different than the herbs that I may work with. And it is so darn true. And that's where it's that beautiful, never-ending knowledge and no six-month little certification that's going to turn you into a master. That part. It's forever, forever learning forever. That's what I love about it. Like I was uh I was one of those kids in school that was in all the gifted programs and and whatnot, and I got very bored in school. Um, and herbalism is never going to bore me. I've been grabbed me and it was like, oh, look at you. You don't know it, but many years down the road, you're still going to be talking about us, learning about us, learning from your students, learning from other teachers, and loving every bit of it. So let's talk about herbs. Couple of questions I have coming up. A lot of the people that listen to this show are also mothers. And I would imagine that you use herbs with your kiddos. And I'm just curious like, is there a top couple or some that they love that you would want to share with our listeners?

SPEAKER_03: 42:39

Sure. The main one, the biggest staple in my house is hibiscus. It's I think it's just relevant to our house in a couple of ways. One way is definitely my husband, like it always reminds him of home. Like he grew up with hibiscus. Of course, like if I'm like growing up in Sierra Leone, like you just had stuff everywhere. So even when we got married, I'd be like, Did you know that you had this? And the whatever we have in like the English name, he'll be like, that's not what we call it. And then he has to like teach me what it's actually called. And I'm like, oh, okay. But hibiscus always tastes like home for him. So I always keep that. And then just even ancestrally for me, like it used to be like a drink of celebration in Black American culture until we found Kool-Aid. So that's like my way of resistance of bringing health back. It's like, no, we're just gonna go back to what it worked. But since my small, my little ones, that's always like a good introduction for them because it's just naturally sweet. And when you add a one there, of course, after the age of one, when I add the honey, they're just more prone to be like, okay, because I don't have juice drinking kids like that. They're very water forward. Like some people feel like I've ruined them, and I'm like, I think it's great. Their teeth are amazing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 43:48

My daughter's 12, it's still water is her preferred beverage. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 43:52

I'm like, I think I did fine, but they they do that's like one of their that's kind of like their punch. And so, like, I'll make it with like peaches or you know, whatever summer fruits are going on and kind of jazz it up, and that's just kind of like bonds us. Like, I like to make it in the morning, and everybody kind of just have their own little cup, and you know, so they always feel like ours is different for whatever reason, so I always have to make myself like two cups, and then chamomile is always another one, just simply it's just though that sweet note isn't always also another introductory one. Sometimes I combine the hibiscus and chamomile as well for like that cooling effect, you know. But when they don't feel well, chamomile and lemon balm, those are like the one and the two. I have very sensitive children. So when other people are like catnip, and I'm like turkey tail, I'm like, I have like my kids would be like gone for days. Like, I'm like, they have my husband's like sense, like he has a very sensitive system. A little, like the gentle things is like the best things in my household. Anything aggressive, it's like no one's able to do it. Maybe it's tough for me. But so for them, like chamomile and then lemon balm, they like think that they get like this little treat thing at night, and it's just lemon balm with like maybe a little bit hibiscus to help them sleep, and they just think that they're having something special. I'm like, no, I'm putting it down. That nervous system is about to calm. Sleep is on the way, like it is arriving in about 20 minutes, so I can have some quiet meditation time. But those are really like my three staples, are just those things. They're very like warm-bodied as well. Like they get overheated quick. So I'm the only one cold. I'm the only cold constitution in my whole house. So I'm like, I get to keep all the really warm teas to myself, which is great. But for them, it's just like I try I'm trying to establish with all of them that relationship while they're small. Um, like my oldest, my five-year-old, he's been connecting in that way since he was little. Like we've always had like a little plant room or a sunroom with plants. So he's used to napping every kid, like when at the time they're babies, I let them touch plants that are safe. You know, we have friends that have farms, so they're able to like run on people's farms. And I don't want them being like a lot of kids where they're afraid of outdoors, afraid of bugs, afraid of animals, like just, you know, I'd like just thinking like everything has to be concrete jungle. Like, and I think that's one of the my favorite things about living abroad as well, is they got a lot of nature time. They'll miss it. Like my oldest he's like, I miss Africa. I'm like, I get it. Like, you know, America, you're inside probably a lot more than you would like to be. But I that's really how it is with me with them. It's just I try to make sure that I find gentle things. And kids have sensitive palates. Like, I I've seen I've had arguments with other herbalist moms about that, where they're just like, give them ginger. I'm like, I have to work up to that. Like, that shouldn't be the first thing. Like, you want them to hate this? Like, no. So give working them up. But now, you know, when I am in the kitchen putting, you know, teas together, and they have that curiosity to where now they're like, mommy, what is that? And I'm like, oh, it's this, and oh, can I have some? No, it's for daddy, and this is why, but here's what we can't do. You want to try this? And so now they're more open to understanding because they're I think in their mind too, they think it's just like, well, I'm curious what else things taste like, or what else can these? I'm like, you might not know this is why you're going to sleep, but you know, it's just that building that awareness with them. And so I always encourage moms with that because I do get a lot of moms who ask me questions in my inbox every week about how can they, you know, what herbs are good, you know, for their children, how can they introduce herbs to their children? And I always just tell them like, find something neutral that everybody can enjoy and make it a family ritual. Like I grew up with not in that type of way, but my family like used to like pray together every Friday. So like we had our own little rituals growing up that I didn't realize was holding us together until I became an adult. And so I use that same like wisdom within herbalism with my family of just like what can I do to create a family ritual to where when they see the teacups out, what does that mean for them? And it's just like they may not have the language all the way yet, but they're just like, okay, is that? And I hope it carries with them when they're an adult, to where when they're away from home, where they need comfort, they're like, it's tea time for me. That's what I'm hoping to instill in them.

SPEAKER_00: 48:28

I love that. It's so beautiful. And of course, those are some herbs that we use a lot in our family as well. I love how you talked about the connection piece that you're really hoping that they get. And chemomile has been a huge one for my daughter throughout her life. And she's been one who's dealt with anxiety quite a bit. And each time she would get like really anxious, she would be like, Mommy, my tummy hurts when she was younger. Um I would always like make her some chemomile tea because we're hitting both aspects, right? The tummy and the anxiety, like we know that connection is happening for a reason. And it eventually got to a point where she'd be like, Mommy, my tummy hurts. And I'm like, Okay, she's feeling a little anxiety. And I would just say, Okay, I'm gonna make you some tea. I wouldn't even make the tea. I would just tell her I'm making the tea. And she would calm down. Like she knew that chamomile was coming for her, and like that relationship had really made that connection. She doesn't seem to deal with it much anymore at the age of 12 now. So that's really cool. But she definitely has a lot of intuitive and built-in knowledge about plants. Like she grew up when I had opened up my brick and mortar and apothecary. And like, how could she not? Well, you're her mom, right? You're her mother. And definitely the nature piece is so darn important. It's so many kids really miss out on that. And that's actually how I got onto the path of herbalism because I went to school for environmental and experiential education, and I just wanted to help more kids spend time in nature. Oh, wow, that's cool. It is, and my daughter definitely has that. I mean, I live in a nature junkies paradise right now. So I love that you're doing that for your kids too, and especially with how the world is today. It is so unbelievably crazy how disconnected people are. And I remember when I was doing more of that work with the with the kids, and I would love to work with nonprofits that there were so many young black children that I did work with that were so afraid to walk in the woods with me. And it broke my heart.

SPEAKER_03: 50:45

It's literally one of the, and that's one of the reasons why, like, not just me, that my husband is also adamant. Like, he was like I told him he grew up blessed to grow up in where he had waterfalls that he was sliding down, you know, like as a little boy. Like I was like, I would have loved, you know, but I'm like, yeah, like I was like, I would have absolutely lost sending my Saturday, you know, just going to a natural waterfall and floating, you know, nothing crazy. And so for him, he wants them to have that. But for I share that with most like black Americans, like we grow up, and I did like lineage-wise, like my grandmother, her uncles and things like have family like land. So she grew up in, you know, horseback riding in orchards, you know, like all these really wicked stories. And my grandfather as well, like they grew up with that. But then when they did that great migration to Detroit, you know, all that's gone. So now the focus is not necessarily a bad thing, but just education, acclimating, assimilating to a degree, you know, like going more into corporate spaces. And so when you're speaking those new languages, nature's really not a part of that. So the most that I really got to take part in is like, of course, going to the park, playing a lot in my grandparents' backyard. My grandmother always kept a garden. So, you know, going with her to get seeds and stuff like that. But just the more major things, like being able to, like you said, go out into a forest and connecting in that way, that was absent growing up for me. And so when I decided to go do sustainable agricultural training, if for about four months, we didn't have like heat air or anything. Like it's a third country simulated village that you stay in the entire time. And everyone was like, You're so crazy. Cause here I am, you know, straight hair, transitioning to natural hair, just like everyone, even the program director at the end of the program, he was like, I really thought you were gonna fail the first week because I was the only one that had never been abroad at that point. I didn't look earthy, you know. Like I brought like three suitcases of clothes, everybody just brought one single duffel. I have like four sandals, depending on what gravel I'm on. You know, like because that part I didn't have that in-depth relationship, but that program putting my hands in the dirt and also connecting with my grandfather, his youngest son, my uncle, him sharing so many stories about my grandfather and him. And he's just like, oh girl, that's in your blood. So every time I would go out, I would call him while I'm like telling my garden and everything else in between and picking vegetables in the morning. He's like just telling me these fam, like my grandfather's garden, how my granddad would give people food in Alabama who needed it from his garden before he'd go to work. So all of that just was like waking something up inside of me to where I by the time my family came to visit me, I was walking barefoot, like everywhere. They're just like, girl, these hard, like these little hard rocks just tearing your feet up. And I was like, I don't feel nothing. They took me to go get a pedicure, and like the lady was like cracking on my feet. Like she was just like, these are farmers' feet. I said, they are because I farm. Like I was like, it is that I don't really need like these cute curated toes because I'm not cute. Thank you so much. I forgot for that. And I did. And by the time like I left, like if my family was just like, we don't even recognize who you are. And it's just always stuck with me. That first month that I left, like I was I went to depression because I was just like, there was, and they told us we were. They're like, the moment you leave, if you're not going to something similar, you're gonna struggle. All the lights, the busyness, the fast food everywhere. I was like, take me back, like take me back to Utopia where it's the stars are out and it's quiet, and it's just you and nature and birds and roosters crowing. And so that's still on like my life docket because it just does something to your nervous system to just be out. Like being, I would wake up at five in the morning and just sit in that stillness, like it's unmatched to just be in that quiet, feeling that outdoor air, and everything is just silent, except for a couple creatures waking up. And I tell people, I'm like, it's just something so etheral about that. That I'm like, y'all missing out. But for black Americans, especially, when I went away, like all my black friends, what girl, what? Like all my like white friends are okay with it. They're just like, oh yeah, like such a hipster. We love it. You know, like they're okay. Come there, like writing me great letters. My black friend, are you okay? You need something, care package, what do you like? Girl your hair, you know, what are you gonna do? All that. But when I came out of it and just sharing, writing them letters because we couldn't use our phones the first month. So, like writing them letters about my experience got a lot of my friends to start connecting with nature and being less afraid of it as well. And again, just being more intentional of asking about those stories, asking my grandmother about how she grew up, asking her about her, you know, her uncles, her lived experience, and just being like, Yeah, you know, like that. And she'll be like all the time, like, you know what? That was really living what we were doing. She's like, what we're doing now, she was like, is okay. But she's always like, that was living. And I was like, it was because y'all were just picking peaches off the tree. I was like, I don't know who wouldn't want to go horseback riding and sit in a plum tree and just take a nap. That's life. And I was like, that that's abundance to me compared to you know, the life we have now. So I if anything, I hope that gift that I give my children that even as they make friends that look like them, that's a gift they can give them and you know, it and tap into because I'm proud of them when they see bugs and they're not streaming for their life and running. Sometimes I have to stop them because I'm like, that's a spider. I have to identify, like, that's uh, like because they're now they're just fearless over there, like, mommy, no, like why are we touching what is it? Like, I gotta see if that's a friendly spider. And they're just like, oh, everything's our friend. No, everything it may seem like a friend, but you're not, you know, Steve Irving. We don't know how to handle all the things. So I definitely get that. And I'm I there's such a revival within the black community with gardening, farming, beekeeping, herbalism, and it just makes me so grateful, given our history of land loss and disconnection, to where it's just like a wide generation of us are just craving that, and we're like, you know what? F it, I'm gonna just go back and get it. Cause like my mama didn't have it, that's fine. My grandparents had to leave it, that's okay. I'm gonna restore that part because that's really where a lot of us thrive. So I'm really happy to see it and I'm hoping that it keeps spreading in that way. I love that.

SPEAKER_00: 57:31

So, like the whole time you were just speaking there, like my arms were chilled with happiness. And I really love getting to hear you speak about your lineage and the people that have come before you and taught you so much and that deep, deep connection to the land. And I'm seeing it too. Like, again, obviously, I'm a white European girl, and I don't know how it's happened on threads, but I am seeing this huge black community of people that are like, I'm going back to the land, I'm learning about plants, I'm digging my hands in the dirt, and it's really beautiful to see. Yeah. Obviously, I see it a lot with the white folks. I live in Oregon for Christ's sake. Like, we are nothing but hippies and land lovers for the most part on on the on the i-5 corridor for sure. So yeah, it's really beautiful to see. And part of what got me into the world of herbalism was this deep desire to save our planet. That was it's still the core of why I do everything that I do. And I had this deep belief, still have this deep belief that the more people that learn to love and respect herbs and plants as medicine, they're going to create this deeper connection and trust and love for nature and our planet. And in turn, that is going to result in more people doing what it really, really takes. And we're so far behind on to take care of this planet. And yeah, I'm just excited to see it happen in so many different cultures beyond my little little one. So that's beautiful. That's beautiful. So I would love to hear from you. I've got a couple more questions and then I'll let you go back to your beautiful family. I'm just loving hearing your stories and just sitting back like that. That was great. I'm sure that everybody else that's listening is loving it too. But I would love to know. We talked about your kiddos and the main herbs that you love to use for them and how you're helping foster that connection to nature and these plants and understanding that wow, these plants are really amazing and doing something for me. But what about you? Do you have like a go-to herb that is just your herb? My just mine?

SPEAKER_03: 59:45

Oh, just some oatstraw. In my house, because I share ginger with my husband. I cannot make gingers. He I felt like it would be my thing, but because he grew up with so much spice, anytime he just even whiffs ginger in the air, he's like, You're making ginger tea? And I'm like, No, it was for me. Like it was just for me. So Oatstraw is definitely like I'm the only person in the house who drinks that is like my calming herb. Like, I have a very busy brain. So sometimes I might sprinkle some skull cap in there, but like I just have it, just it soothes me differently than other herbs. Like, I had came across it after a like a really intense herbalism weekend. Breast Prentice, I love her to pieces. I'm like so grateful that I just that woman's like, I don't know, superhero in my mind. But who's that prentice? She's a master herbalist of like 30 years, and she does this intense herbalism intensive called herbalism of a weekend. And she sent us like this full just pack of herbs. And Ostra was one of them, and her she went through like what each one of them do, and she's just like, which one you guys feel called to? And she's like, It might be none of them. Like, I might essentially nothing that you're interested in. But hearing about Ostra had really pricked me because I was under such a stressful time during that time. Like they had found like six fibroids, they were like, Oh. Oh, we found like some precancerous cells. We think we got to keep doing all this testing. It ruined my whole mother's day. My first mother's day was like ruined by that. And I was just like, you know what? Like my nerves and stuff are a wreck. Like a nerve iron might actually be useful. And I have a family history of anxiety. So I was just like, this just might be a good ally for me. So it was really the first herb in like a really, really, really long time that I just sat with like a good friend. Like every morning that was my ritual. I wake up at seven o'clock in the morning before my husband got up for work, before my oldest, because it was just him at the time, where he really got his little morning start at 7:30. And I would make me a cup of tea, sit in my son's room, and just be quiet. And just kind of just let it in my grandparents' parents to minister to me, but just really speak to me and get me grounded because I was a new mom, a new stay-at-home mom, and I had never seen that done because my mom's worked my whole life. So there was just so many transitions happening for me to where I was just like, I'm frazzled as all outdoors. I'm like, I'm trying, I need this is my first like deep, deep case of healing for myself out of a very long time. How am I gonna tackle you know what's going on with my body? Like, I'm two years into being married, so it's like I'm still learning this man that I'm living with. It's just it was so much transition happening at one time for me. And so Ostra just really kept me grounded and sane a little bit. And that's really how I started learning just what allyship looks like when it comes to herbs, like treating them like a friend. And so even now, like if I might go a little bit without connecting, but even the other day, I was like, no, time to bring her back. Like, oh my god, I'm like, the new year is coming, these classes are crazy. Like, I need to connect with my old friend and stay grounded. And of course, like me being a breastfeeding mom, the benefits of that is like phenomenal with the milk because you always, especially when you're under stress, it can just start killing your milk. Like you're you like it decreases your supply. So it helps me just to even be able to nourish my kids because I'm still breastfeeding. So being able to make sure that's taken care of. And it's like I've done syrups with it, teas, just all tensures, all the stuff. But I prefer just a good cup of tea, like just a good cup of tea as a morning ritual or even a night ritual before I go to sleep of just me and that and just being quiet, shutting up and listening to what it has to say about just me being finding that sense of calm. So yeah, that's like the only herb I don't have to share. Darn year, everything else has to be sheer.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:54

I'm a big, big fan of oats as well. I love the straw in a tea. Like it is, I think grounding is the perfect word for me when I think of oat straw. You said that, and I was like, oh yeah, that's grounding, and like instantly. And then hearing your story, I was like, Yep, all checks out. That's great. And then I do the oat tops. I will gather them when they're nice and fresh and get all of the movie like latex goodness. And whoo, that's really helpful, especially when you go through years like 2025 has been for me. So I like it. Yeah, I know. I know. I'm like, well, I'm not gonna pretend like everybody loves that. Every almost everybody. Yeah, and if not, there's probably some things that we maybe don't want to discuss that way. Definitely. Yeah, so I really, really love that plant. Thank you for sharing too. I think a lot of people could really benefit from that. And it's just so nourishing, too. And when you're feeding your babies, like nourishing them in the most beautiful of ways. I breastfed for oh really close to three years, and my girl got lots of herbs. I was saying, I'm sure. Yep, yep, yep. Good stuff, good stuff. Okay, I've got another question for you. Um, all the budding herbalists out there and the ones that really want to immerse themselves in this work for their life, they're really feeling that call. What words of wisdom would you give them?

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:30

I would say the best advice I could give is to create your own blueprint. I think that's people I know get sick of me saying it, but it's just like I say it so often because we I feel like we live at a time right now where people really market heavy that their way is the way, whether it be in business, whether it be in just holistic I hate it in holistic living so much, just you know how we how we handle our health, like it's just a singular best way to do something. And I'm like, and that's something I've been seeing in herbalism over the years as well. That really, if that if anything grinds my ears, it's probably that where people create these narratives that their method, like someone out there saying that her you drinking her firesider drinking it every day 365 is like the cure. And I'm like, that's stupid. And no one's even drinking firesider every day. Like, let's really be serious. Nobody's doing that. There's a certain type of year we do it for a reason, and you do it like there's just so many flaws in the logic, but we're seeing that I'm seeing that more and more where people are selling like these blueprints and how to get into herbalism that it robs people of the experience of learning. And a lot of and I get it because when you do start, when you feel that tug to get in with anything new, you're like, Well, how the heck do I start? Like, where am I jumping into? And really, I like I tell people the most simplest thing is one herb at a time. Like, I'll ask them if you're starting off with a formulation, how do you know what's actually working? Because you don't even understand the mechanics and the synergy, how the synergy is even working, because you've never sat with one herb at a time. And I've told people, and they're like, it's gonna take forever. That's the point. Sure is that's like I'm like, I'm sorry, that's that's the point is to build that relationship. Because if you don't slow down and someone asks you, what does spearmint taste like versus peppermint? You have no clue. You're just like they all taste the same. They absolutely do not. Even the menthol levels are like there's the differences, even when I like, and it always shows when I teach workshops, especially because when I'm like breaking out with plant families and people are just bucking their eyes open, lemon bombs related to peppermint, like right, you didn't slow down, you didn't slow down, and that's why certain sensitivities are happening because you didn't slow down, so it's just slowing down to learn and build a relationship, and then creating your own blueprint because who we're all meant to assist is not the same. So if I'm using your blueprint that works with like postpartum mothers, but my calling is to mothers who are pregnant, it's not we're I can't approach it the same. So now I'm putting frameworks that are not even inherently mine, and it robs you of your discernment because a lot of our work, and I even as scientific as I am, not lost on the fact that a lot of my work comes down to discernment, it's being able to listen and being like practically on paper, this is what I suggest. But what I'm picking up is this is actually what you need. You can't do that if you're just guideline yourself off of somebody else's framework and how somebody else operates. And that's why I I starve people of a lot of my personal practices or how I approach like people have been like, Why can't you teach how you work with people? Absolutely not, because the way that I work with people, one is how has a lot of influence on how I grew up. You didn't grow up in my household, you didn't grow up with in the spaces that I did, you didn't have the mentors that I had, and you also don't share the legacy that I share. You have your own, and you might be the conduit to start the rest of your legacy, which is very important. Like, there's a lot of people that's like, I didn't grow up with it, and I'm like, Well, what you're doing is monumental, and so you for sure should not want to, you know, pattern yourself after anybody because you're gonna leave something behind for generations to follow, and they want to hear your voice and your message. I want my whatever I'm doing, like I literally am writing down every last thing to create books for all my children, and I'm hoping that they'll continue to copy and add on and keep it going. So hex know, I don't want to know how you're mixing your crap because I'm not leaving that to them. At the end of the day, that's the legacy I'm leaving behind. And so people are to me, a lot of budding herbalists are so because, and I don't blame them, it's just how social media teaches us to be and just the microwave society of just like I gotta get to it. Herbalism is slow, herbs are slow, like you are not going to see the results you want to see. It's a miracle if you see it in a week sometimes. A lot of it is gonna tell you in the book four weeks, sometimes three months. It's a slow work. So a lot of it is budding herbality to slow down, like it's gonna go against all that you in this in high functioning society is gonna go against the grain, but it's the only way to you can't you have to go slow, or else you're gonna miss everything that's important, and you are not gonna be the best that you want to be because you're gonna miss out on all the skills it takes to do that, and then also to just learn through that slowness, through that everyday practice, through that one cup of tea at a time, that failed tincture, that's where you build your practice. That's where you say, Oh, I don't like giving advice like that. Or you know what, I don't even want to teach, I want to be a farmer. I'm so much better outside than I am, like actually sitting in a consultation. That's how you find out is through that slow drip of a practice of getting your hands into the work. You you gotta take your time. So that would just be my my my roundabout way, but that those two things to me are key is just taking your time and then building your own framework through your personal experience. That's the only way to me to really get started.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:42

I love it. I love the taking time piece, like it's so darn important. And I guess I, you know, it's funny hearing you talking about the frameworks of the ways to work with different people out there that you see on social media. And, you know, I teach online and I've learned a lot about marketing in that way. And so many of like the online education spaces are like, you have to have this framework and it's your framework. And I'm like, exactly. No, this is not going for me. I can teach people how to become more discerning and how to pull out questions and how to really learn to listen to a person deeper than the words that they're telling you, right? How to read them by being in their presence, right? There's so many little nuances and pieces there, but I can never give you the one right way. Like there's no one right way because we're all unique, we're all different. So I see this a lot also on social media or on threads a lot. Like, oh, if you're dealing with this, you take these herbs. Like, hi, you're new to this game, aren't you?

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:48

That's that's to me, that's always the marker. The moment I see it, I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, you're new. I'm just gonna pass on. You know, I'm like, I'm gonna refresh my food. You know, like this, I get it. I'm like, you'll learn it's okay. And I get it too.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:02

Like it's so exciting and cool to learn that plants can do what they can do. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. And you know, you just have to be discerning in who you're gonna interact with, you know. So that's the challenge, right? Joe, you are so much fun to chat with, even better than just reading your threads. So thank you so much for coming on. I would love for you to share with people how they can reach you, learn more from you, and connect on a deeper level.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:35

Yeah, sure. So on all my socials, it's real rooted Joe, literally anywhere. I'm the only one. So whether you find me on threads or TikTok, which I'm not on there often, I have a YouTube that you can go, and I have some, I feel like some cool videos on there as well that you can tap into. I do have a Substack, it's under the same thing, and there's where I do like a lot of heavy work. So deep dives on herbs on my paid plan, especially. Like, we talk more on the constitutional level. I share some really cool studies um there as well that people seem to really be into because I love proving. I hate when people are like, There's no science. I'm like, Well, my subtext says differently. So that's where that part is debunked. Is like I'm like, here's a study from this year. That's like exactly what we've already done for centuries. And so, yeah, the real root of Joe, any platform, and then my website. I'm always updating my offerings. I don't always have like my windows open for consultations, like I'm it's usually for one time during the year. But seeing where my studies are now, I don't know when that's gonna be again. But I do offer light assessments and stuff like that just to get you started. Like you're not sure what herbs to actually start with. I do love walking people through that process because that first connection is like everything, and it's just to me, it's a very sacred time. So that's like usually the best way. And my website is read itjoe.com. I keep it like very simple. Best way to be.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:02

Yeah. Every for my peace of mind. I feel lucky that I've got the herbalist path all across the board. Yay! And I chose that because I started in this world of herbalism when I was a backpacking guide and wilderness therapist, literally like hiking on trails. And I feel like it has taken me on my own unique path or blueprint, in your words. Like, I didn't know I was coming along for this ride, but the plants were like, well, you're gonna go over here, and now you're gonna go over here, and now you're doing this, and you know, 25 plus years later, here I am, still talking about herbs. So yeah, it's a path, it's a journey, and you get to, I don't know if I really got to pick my own or if the plants just said, Hey, this is what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03: 1:15:50

I think they told you what you're doing. Yeah, I think that's how everyone gets put in their places, like, oh no, we need you all to hear.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:56

Oh, yep, yep. Yeah. This has been so much fun. And I really look forward to the next time that we get to connect in some way, shape, or form, whether you're back as a guest teacher in the community herbalist program, or I have you again on this show, or who knows what other ways we can connect and collaborate and all that fun stuff. So thank you, Joe.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:18

Thank you for having me ahead of us. I love it. Have a good one. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:29

Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of the Herbalist Path. If you're loving this journey into herbal medicine, please follow and review the show. It helps more people find their own path with the plants. And if you know someone who could use this kind of support, please share this episode with them. So that way we can keep making herbalism spread like wildflowers. Also, a gentle reminder nothing shared on this podcast is intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any disease. This is all for educational purposes and yeah, physical entertainment too. But it is not a substitute for personalized care from a qualified health practitioner. Always do your own research, listen to your body, and when needed, partner with a trusted professional who honors both your intuition and your unique health journey. Until next time, take care, stay curious, and keep walking the urban path.